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Nov 10 call chat log
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Hello there everyone. Glad you could make it!
Hello there everyone. Glad you could make it!
Jim Burrows:Hello, Harry.
HarryWaisbren:Hey Jim---thanks again for all of your help during the markup tweetchats!
Both you and Amy were absolutely integral to making sure we coordinated everyone during the markups last week.
Jim Burrows:No problem. Been feeling like I should be doing more. Glad I could help with taht much.
HarryWaisbren:Agreed we need to solidify communications. I had sent the email to the MyBo 3 days ago but it only just registered (not sure what's going on with it).
FB I thought we had discussed that we were not doing messages or events. We should get more on the same page about how to use it to the fullest.
HarryWaisbren:Checking it now
HarryWaisbren:I don't think I'm an admin actually
Jim Burrows:I don't seem to have moderator privs.
HarryWaisbren:You can continue to do so if you like. I think it's important to have very detailed notes from these calls (I've been using them a ton at least), and it'd be much more difficult to do both.
HarryWaisbren:Jim, Mark, and Harry on the call
HarryWaisbren:Meeting agenda here:
HarryWaisbren:Jon: small update. ACLU dot rights campaign is going to be releasing a video that ites governemtn surveilance to information corporations get about you from social networks
HarryWaisbren:Jon: I was at a califronai privacy coaltiion meeting yesterday, ran into someone from EFF who says they are pretty excited about what we are doing.
Jon: a lot of awareness in general from privacy activists in general. Might do another training round for them, not necessarily focused on the patriot act, but building the skills in teh community as a whole
Jon: very trickly. Lot of the organizations don't think they can weigh in on the patriot act because it's too much lobbying for them. Why we don't get as much attention on twitter etc. as we might.
Jon: increasingly more willing to help, so encouraging
HarryWaisbren:Amy: one reason I sent link from the young turks last week was that I thought that might be a way to coax more people into GFR.
Amy: I thought waht they did in terms of encouraging activism was very creative. Doing that on FB, I thought this was pretty cool
HarryWaisbren:Jon: I didn't have a chance to look at it
Amy going to pull it into the chat
HarryWaisbren:I'm on young turks email list, they do great work distributing through new media.
Can see them being the perfect media outlet to target
HarryWaisbren:Jon: they had me on Meet the Bloggers before.
Harry: my former radio co-host has some ties to Cenk Uygar, can tap that
Jon: sounds liek that jmps to the top of our media targetting list
HarryWaisbren:Jon: key challene is to keep the momentum going. Really successful chat last week, having people from CATO, EFF, AML, having so much value they came back the next day.
Jon: great job everybody. Really powerful statement, showing where real interesting conersation is going on.
Jon: of course the vote was real positive thing too. Now, going forward, how do we take this energy and turn it into a debate
HarryWaisbren:Jim: I have a question related to that. Did we actually have an impact this time?
Jim: behaviro of hte congressmen was quite different ont he second day as opposed to the first
Jim: first, lot of finger pointing. Second day, more ratioanl discussion. certainly disagreed with the toher side, but they were far more reasonable, discussion was more reasonable. We had been criticizing them. Not sure if we got to them, but something had an impact on them
HarryWaisbren:Jon: good point, I think we'll never know.
Jon: the quickness of the reportoire on twitter, you can imagine staffers showing it to congersspeople, saying you don't want to be looking like this. So who knows.
HarryWaisbren:Amy: 4 of hte people missing from the second day of the HJC hearings, guess where they were? Wtih Michelle Bachmann at hte tea parties.
HarryWaisbren:Jon: going forward, all I know about the legislative situation, Reyes amendmetn is being marked up in teh intelligence committee
Jon: don't know about the jockeying between those two going forward. At privacy coalition meeting, discussion of how health care continues to suck all of the oxygen out of this issue
HarryWaisbren:Jon: in the senate, both the Leahy Feinstein bill and the Sessions bill (straight renewal, no safeguards)
HarryWaisbren:Brandon (?): FAC removes whatever Lieberman has. As a poll to make Leahy/Feinstein look like a compromise, not like the least protective one.
HarryWaisbren:Jim: JUSTICE was in there too, so much better
HarryWaisbren:Amy: waht do we want to do about this, what are we thinking
HarryWaisbren:Amy: take waht we know about these issues, and take it out of the legislative wonk level and bring it to a wider audience
HarryWaisbren:Amy: rihgt now, I'm hearing it, I'm not up to speed. Feeling like I can do some research, if I'm feeling this way, other people who coudl tune into what we are doing are woefully inadequate. Don't want to do that, not suggesting we mollify or simplify it
HarryWaisbren:Jon: have to cut to the core of something that is easy for people to grasp. From that, can be explored with as much complexity as needed, but does not confront peopel with bewildering complexity
Jon: crisp call to action
HarryWaisbren:Jon: I think ti has to be in terms of hte principles rather than the specific legislation.
Jon: can see it in terms of our open letter. Waht do we want to ask Obama to do?
HarryWaisbren:Jon: in a way that doesn't sem incredibly tacticial
HarryWaisbren:Amy: if we were to summarize it, after the fact, one of hte individuals who make the suggestions in an executive summary. Little too formal considering we already have an established conversation thread iwth the Presidnet and his team, they know where we stnad.
Jon: for anyone else though, not for Obama I think
Jon: interesting way to thinka bout it,e veryone comign to this new, for them we need to surround the letter with the basics of the summary
HarryWaisbren:Amy: as this travels through congress, we want to buidl story lines that will both inform and engage.
Jon: totally agree, keep going on this front. Is an important think. The civil liberties community as a whole really wrestles with this, these converasitons are really valuable
HarryWaisbren:Amy: parallel, the one show on NPR I look forward to everyday is the review of what will be on the SCOTUS docket every year. could look to waht is pending and try to undrstand it, but Mika Totenburg brings it home. That's my goal for what we are trying to do.
Amy: it informs, it engages, and the second tier is that it buttons into the personal stories that reflect the aspects of the legsilation
HarryWaisbren:Jon: Julian, you have been the most successful at engaging people. What is your perspective?
Julian: one thing about hese stories, is one of our problem is the poeple whose stories we want to tell are mostly under gag order. Unaware they are being investigated.
Julain: wondering if we don't have time to analagous to media. Lot of people maybe ont he left side who dont' necessairly care about this first and foremost, but if you say this is a grand jury subpoena but you could do this with a NSL and never know. Someone thought itw as a good idea to do this, swept in, got the whole list of people reading the site.
Julian: things folks on the left coudl worrya bout. On the right, might help to remind people about what happened to Joe hte Plumber afte rhe rose to priminence. Poeple wtih access to his records dove through stuff, seing if he had paid child support, etc. in ways ot mock him
HarryWaisbren:Julian: not necessarily prime dnagers of NSLs, but theme that ties togehter to the zillion nibblign things they are tryign to do, is makign the distinction between when you actualy hvea connection to some real foreing intelligence target, or when you are getting stuff becasue it mgiht ehlp
Julian: across the board, the immunizaiton stuff, and the stuff the administration is fighting. You can assemble fromt eh places where their objectison are, it is clear there is a rpogram basd ont ehw ay they are objecting, that requires essentially no restrictions on the acuqisiton and retention of stuff that htey know is not directly relevant to terrorism.
Julian: some of these stories, the Joe the Plumber story, is the kind of thing you can use as a hook to this theme of "what happens when you let them build these databases that don't hae to have this conenciton, that can just be everyone"
HarryWaisbren:Jon: was a real impornatt point that came up during the harings, the framing that these wee all laws that let you surveil poeple who aren't terrorists
JOn: much more straight fowradr proisions for the terrorists
HarryWaisbren:Amy: there were congersspoeple who clearly weren't clued into the distinctions btw those ont eh FBI lists and those who were speciically terorirsts.
Amy: tryign to paint all 400,000 as potential terorrists
Julian: we better hope to God there aren't 400,000 terrorists int eh country
HarryWaisbren:Jon: I wonder if this is a place to try to get the technical community involved to analyze this in more detail. worked very well int he voting rights area.
Jon: talkign with CFP people last year, can we do analgogous issues. This could be a great topic for anotehr tweetchat Harry
HarryWaisbren:Jim: this ties into my post about "can we get fisa right" conclusiont aht we can't
Jim: in the end, given the email technology, not so much the pohne stuff, but to do the things that traditioanlly spies ahve been able to do, they have to put togehter a tecnical system that includs stuff that willb e US persons or in the US who are protected
HarryWaisbren:Jim: are technical reasons whyt his ends up being enforced. Are the things that cause someone like Obama who has at least some civil libertarian instincts to be going in this really terrible direction
Jim: get presented iwth this concept that there is no choise. Not sure that given the technology that there is a choice
HarryWaisbren:Jim: I may be wrong about htis, but until we get some more technical people than me to kcik this around, I'm nto srue.
HarryWaisbren:Jon: focusing on the watch list can be good. Becasue of gag orders, to get to stories we need to broadne it anyways. No wis as good as any
HarryWaisbren:Mark: this is where the minimization stuff comes in. One thing to do the braodsweep, enter into the gray zone, get 400,000 innocent people swept up for a day. For a week.
Mark: problem is waht do you do with it after you have culled this informaiton for which there is no technology I agree to discrminate initially, waht do you do ater you have all the innocent people?
Mark: waht do you do with the data you have collected?
HarryWaisbren:Mark: on teh senate side, they were very hot to make sure the FBI and the NSC and so forth were required by law to dump that data on innocents
HarryWaisbren:Amy: I want to follow up on observation Julian started to make, assembld from their objectsion. In other words, the legislators tarryign form last week, is that what I infer correctly.
Julian: not sure if I followed that
Jon: inferring what's going on from the pattern int he small changes they are making
Julian: you reminded me that one thing peopel react ot is total informaiton awareness. Feel like it's almost nonspeculative, not really hiding it that well. Can't if you are acting for legislative
HarryWaisbren:Julain: if we poitn to that, we can say that this is the superdatabase that hey obviously want to build. They don't want anything that would get into the way of that database
Jon: and may have built that already. And are defending it against discovery
Amy: this week's news events, with Ft Hood, and FBi was aware that there were aberrations, and they sent it up the chain and did nothing, that points to the fact that htere are still holes in the system
HarryWaisbren:Harry: Marcy Wheeler posted about using Ft HOod as justiciation to get rid of lone wolf
Julian: conyers sounded lik he woudl fold on that
Julian: anything people coudl twist into what you are saying to say "they shoudlnt' ahve beenr eading his emails", yeah they shouldn't have, but I would be very careful about anythign that sounds like that
Jon: not the time to be making that abstract point
HarryWaisbren:Amy: I think anyoen wh would come new into the organization might raise that question to smack back at us.
Jon: good point, need to think through waht our position is on that
Amy: I like the idea of using as one of the personal stoires that I keep goign back to, tryign to think inclusive.
HarryWaisbren:Amy: (missed his name) privacy was violated, and what happened with that?
Julian: mild reprimands, nothign very serious
Jon: has anyone seen LAPD's I-watch? creepy ad, encouraging poeple to spy on their neighbors.
Jon: heard the word creepy about that video from a bunch of peopel. How to associate some of that same kind of creepiness with the kind of powers that the govenrment has under the aptirot act
HarryWaisbren:Amy: know that Bloomberg's administration ahve signs all over the city that say "if you see something say somethign"
HarryWaisbren:Jon: part of htis capmaign, not this similar, but wroded even more starkly than the NY campaign.
Jon: there is an ad they are running in LA. Sent the video, wound up on Huffington Post. Really very Orwellian.
Jon: wonder if htere is a way to remix some of that video with some other video stuff
HarryWaisbren:Jon: get to somethign that speaks to people emotiaonlly
Amy: other than copyright violations, waht are you talking about?
Jon: if we get sued by the LAPD we'll get some press
Amy: not sure if we want to go that way
Jon: we can get good advice on what is and isnt' permissable. could take 10-15 seconds of it.
HarryWaisbren:Amy: understand that London is one of hte most wired areas, and they feel it's appropritae since with the eye on teh world they have nailed some terrorists. Taht is liek big brohter, oepning discussion, how far do we go.
HarryWaisbren:Amy: what is too intrusive, so it will be a queery to introduce new members hwo come on
Julian: the London thing is a great thing beacuse you point out and say "is this where we'll be in 2 years" or 5 years. Point there that some town council is having some woman survieled, it's really intensive I don't want to be hypoerbolic, but seeing if she idis sending her kids to the wrong school district.
Julian: this is where you go if you dont' say stop
HarryWaisbren:Jim: great quote on the BBC the day after they shot that south american fellow. Chased him itno the tube, onto the tube, got him tot he gorund, shot him dead thinking he was a middle east terorrist. Swarthy, wearing a jacket on the wrong day
Jim: interviewed a woman right htere when it happened. Said "sometimes we need to sacrifice our liberty ot protect our freedom"
Amy: reminds me of the Ben Franklin quote
HarryWaisbren:Jim: this is sacrifice liberty for freedom
HarryWaisbren:Jon: good briansotmring. I think some promising directiosn come out of htat, will coem back when we do next steps at the end
HarryWaisbren:Jon: talk about the tweetchats
Jon: jUlian, we talked with you and Kevin about potentially doing the first one, coudl we scheudle some time for htat make snese
HarryWaisbren:I like the comparison of the DHS right wing extremism report, that Obama would go after conservatives. They are petrified of that.
HarryWaisbren:Jon: I think the idea is to schedule a tweetchat on this. Pick a topic that is liekly to be of interset, that focuses on this area, likely to be of interest. Including you Kevin, someone else maybe. go at it for an hour or so.
Jon: with an eye towards finding which stoires resonate, reach otu to others interested in this
HarryWaisbren:Julain: not to early eastern, not too late westenr. Mid day thing, late mronign for him, alte afternoon for me
Jon: a day when none of you have conflicts
Jon: getting word out a couple of days in advance
HarryWaisbren:Amy: I'm pretty flexible, if you ned me to be up later to work on stuff. My 9-3 tehse days is occupired with a developing legal news story in relation to some election anomaloies that happened.
HarryWaisbren:Jon: probably best thing to do is when we know when Julian/kevin can make it, set up a doodle poll to see the best of htose times
Jon: and think about what we want the follow on chat to that. After, we start some activism stuff carnking up, will be asier to invite people on that as they would ahve had some expeience with tweetchats. Will ahve a broader pool
HarryWaisbren:Julian: are we talking Declaen? he's the one who broacehd htis indy media story
HarryWaisbren:Jon: invite Declaen to tweetchat, CC Julian
Julian: we are old friends
Jim Burrows:Should we be interested in bills slightly afield such as Nadler's "H.R.984 - State Secret Protection Act of 2009"?
HarryWaisbren:Jim: I have a qustion on things to pull in
Jim: during the hearings last week, Nadler made frequent reference ot the notion of restricting the gov's access unless they could really show relevance
Jim: he has another bill up that toucehs ont he same topic (posted above)
HarryWaisbren:Jim: are we interested in this? I don't know that we need to discuss it now, but wanted to raise it
Jon: great point, eys we are interested. All related. Could bring it onto twitter, could also be another great topic
Jim Burrows:H.R.984 - State Secret Protection Act of 2009
HarryWaisbren:Julian: that's a good hook too, has to deal with the NSA lawsuit. So many peole got somewhat exciteda bout. Does tie into this idea that, the way this process has been workign has been opaque. Justie not taking position, open to things, doesn't want to be involved publicly
Julian: obviously behind the scenes. POliticians not coming up with this themselves.
Julian: he doesn't have vaugest notion fo the tech that he's talking about. ovously saying things that were making it clear tha thtey were getting htis from justice or different ends ofhte administraiton
Julian: secrecy seems like a big, kind of unifying concept here. Were not allowed to know, somethign going on that htey have to prevent all these chagnes. Dont' want to say outright what it is
HarryWaisbren:Jon: very ocunter to obam'as claims and image that htese are the same kinds of odious Bush like stuff that is still going on
Jon: has a place wehre ont he open letter, can be tapped into there. Calshes with the commitment
HarryWaisbren:Julian: fihgitng tooth and nail to block access to telecom nlobbyign that had gotten congerss to flip on telecom immunity
julian: clearly a united push from telecom
Julian: now Obama is fhgitngi liek hell to bloc the release of hte recrods of what happened int he preivous adminsitration
HarryWaisbren:Julian: theme of a secret law, we don't get to know who influenced the law, don't get to know the secret reasons the law came to be this way. Just need to rust
Julian: too many secrets, no good reason to trust
HarryWaisbren:Amy: doesn't that have to do more with At&T and verizon don't want to be sued into the gorund for invasion of privacy?
HarryWaisbren:Jon: is two fold, that's certainly a factor. Most of us think that a lot of politicains in both parties wound up colluding and really dont' want this to come out
HarryWaisbren:Jon: want to choke off by granting immunity, taking all tehse ases out, choke out discovery
HarryWaisbren:Julian: I cannot but suspect taht there is a lot form the house side pushing Obama to make sure this stuff doesn't come out
HarryWaisbren:Jon: yes, it's the telecom, the necons, the surveilance industrial complex
Jim Burrows:Also related: S.417 - State Secrets Protection Act
HarryWaisbren:Jon: piece of hte overall battle around the role of intellignece in society
HarryWaisbren:Jon: does it make sense int eh open letter ot be focusingin specifically on this?
Jon: not like we can only write one open letter? maybe now is the time to focus down, get something on this sense of back door dealing?
Jon: ask him to speak their position more clealry, act in accordance with it
HarryWaisbren:Julian: are you a part of hte surveillance coaliton, lot of other poeple I'm talking to.
Jon: we coordinate iwth them informally
Julian: hang on a second, let me see the letter they are circulating
Jon: about 20 signatures on it. Chip and Sahid with BORDC on our last call, Kevin from EFF and Michelle from ACLU. It's not clear how to coordiante activism with them.
Jon: they're reporitriore of activism is limited. Email and call senator campaigns.
HarryWaisbren:Amy: that's just email checking. MoveOn does that every other day
Jon: reasonable enough. Everyone agrees there is a good opporutnity to supplmeemt with social network stuff, no one is qutie sure waht to do
Jon: ifw e come up with soemthing compellign to do, coudl talk them on board
Jon: tweetchats could be a way to get them to engage, hope ist hat afterwards we find out other things to do
HarryWaisbren:Note---someone's computer volume is too high, we all can hear when a new comment is inserted into the chat room
HarryWaisbren:Jon: we don't have clear visibility into the timing into either the house or the senate.
Julian: we have at least a week or two before intel and the house side gets aroudn to marking up Reyes
Jon: great point. Given that, it hinkt he open letter is the right thing now. It just doesn't spark enough energy to say call your legislator again. need to do somethign that gets osme energy going
HarryWaisbren:Jon: would be great if over the next week, next week's call we are finalizing the open letter, sending it out and laucnihgn it
Jon: one tweetchat between then. Then anotehr tweetchat as a launch event
Harry: I like the idea of the tweetchat as a luanch event
HarryWaisbren:Jon: if we shoot for that for next weds or thusday depneding on julian's and Kein's schedule?
Jon: think about who else we want to have there, get the next event set up, get open letter finalized.
Jon: key to get a good draft out ot hte gorup early enough so we can get feedback on it
HarryWaisbren:Amy: I like that idea. Engage the poeple who were not only retweeting as well as our core team.
Jon: is it reasonable to expect a draft of hte open letter by the end of hte day thurdsay so we can get it out thursay afternoon/evening, so peopel can give feedback friday and over ht weekend?
HarryWaisbren:Harry: Looking at feedback, is very good. Key is finding out how to incoroprate it into a final draft so everyone feels like they are a part of it
HarryWaisbren:Amy: criticism that we were being too nasty. I don't think we were nasty at all. Want to be inclusive but want to move forward
HarryWaisbren:Jon: one person wants to take a pass at editing and folding in the comments so far.
Jon: Makr, if you have some time to help on this.
Mark: I've been wanting to do that, I'm realistically not sure I can commit by thursday. Looks like I"mg oing to the hospital tomorrow.
Julian: I don't think I can. Weird thing of what CATO can do, is over my line
Harry: I'll help, but key is getting new voices
Jon: key is incoproating new voices. Take a pass, incorporate the thigns you think are strongset from vairous feedback so far
Jon: also stuff in the open letter updates from Jeff on FB, Craig Nezor had good comments.
Jon: probably enough to take anotehr pass. Have some poeple very helpful in doing an editing pass, do that in parallel with getting broader feedback
Jim: I can ehlp a little on editing pass, but I have been shy on time.
Amy: how about I take a pass at it. Seem to liek waht I did with it before
HarryWaisbren:Jon: I'm talkign with Jessica, hegemommy, see if she has some time as well
Amy: I have about two hours to get to it tonight
HarryWaisbren:Harry: I'll help Amy any way I can, let me know when you're working on it!
Jon: thursday blog post, send out via twitter, ask to retweet it. Send to mailing lists and to FB.
Jon: let's figure out who is going to do what on that.
Harry: I'll do the blog post
HarryWaisbren:Amy: need to be brought up to speed on the Reyes measure and Feinstein measure. Someone send me the links. Been consumed with HCR stuff
Jon: I'm not usre there are any details on Reyes measure.
Julian: press release.
Jon: got to be on gov track by now
Amy: so i'll check his website for it
HarryWaisbren:Julian: I haven't seen the text of the thing
HarryWaisbren:Jon: Here is a good roundup.
HarryWaisbren:Jon: work on scheduling, launch next weds/thrudsay with tweetchat as part of it
Jon: julian, kevin, declaen, chip, someone of female provision as well.
Amy: Korkie, Rachel, Amy, I was liking thier perspectives last week
Harry: hopefully all of them
Jon: we had miscommunicaiton, hadn't gotten these out ot the groups before. Have draft open letter up, who is going to send it out.
HarryWaisbren:Amy: I ahve been working iwth the twitter lists. Anyone not on it let me know and I"ll add you. Want to keep tabs of what we are discussing as the days go by so I can educate myself on what is importnat in yoru worlds.
Jon: there are templates for allt eh come latelies, for all the poeple we need to reach
HarryWaisbren:Jon: Julian, do you know if anyone has done an analysis of the Reyes bill.
Julian:... when that dorps they may do a more prose thing. Come a point, not htere yet, when our attention is going to have to pivot to making sure it's the hosue judiciary and not the intel house bill that gets to the floor and becomest he template
Julian: coming ot hte point when we have to pivot to, tehse are thedifferences btw them. Makign that a central thing.
Julian; if Reyes ends up the template in the house. I'm guessing it's goign to look a lot more like Leahy/Feinstein if not worse. Everything turns on a good house bill
HarryWaisbren:Jim: speaking of Leahy/Feinstein, need to be prepared for when that coes up. Don't want them tod ecide that hte thing to do is compromise with lieberman et al. Want other direction towards conyers
HarryWaisbren:Jon: alright all, excellent call. Great stuff. Keep up momentum, really exciting! Lot to do, and it's a good chance to get heard.
Amy: I'm liking this, this is comign together. One last thoguht to share, again thinking of personal stories about bulding interest, really liek the idea of joe the plumber for two reasons. on teh right side and will bring in interesting balance of discussion. may not agree aht they have to say, but tha'ts my political opinion.
Jon: it's a good point, will talk to some people on the legal side to see how well it relates, or does it take us in the wrong direction
Amy: thinking on the ultra left side s Declaen, ont eh skewing middle to far right side is Joe the Plumber. think that's an interesting mix/blend, overarching issue of hta tis again what we're focused on, invasion of privacy, where we go with it, where we tink it's reasonable, what's unreasonable
Amy: in summation. I think that's where we're going.
Jon: it's distintly possible.
http://www.mainjustice.com/2009/11/09/holder-backs-senate-bill-on-expiring-patriot-act-powers/ is important, shows Obama administration's perspective
Harry: I'll be in toucha bout the open letter and tweetchat, thanks again everyone, this was a really great call!
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