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December 3 Cato Institute Tweetchat log

Further notes available in Mark Doerelster's chatterous log of the event.

12:15

HarryWaisbren:

Welcome to the Tweetchat everyone! Make sure to let us know if you have any questions.

Thursday December 3, 200912:15HarryWaisbren

12:34

HarryWaisbren:

RT @GetFISARight: Here are our suggested tweets on our Open Letter to Obama to fix the #patriotact: http://bit.ly/6dDgAH #p2 #tlot

Thursday December 3, 200912:34HarryWaisbren

12:34

[Comment From JimB. JimB.:]

If you want me to produce, I can until something like 5:30, when I have to get in a car

Thursday December 3, 200912:34JimB.

12:35

HarryWaisbren:

Any time you have available would be great Jim! As always, it's much appreciated.

Thursday December 3, 200912:35HarryWaisbren

12:37

Hegemommy:

RT @GetFISARight: Here are our suggested tweets on our Open Letter to Obama to fix the #patriotact: http://bit.ly/6dDgAH #p2 #tlot

Thursday December 3, 200912:37Hegemommy

12:38

[Comment From JimB. JimB.:]

Not sure when I'll leave. Depends on traffic and how enthralling Cato is at that point. I should leave some time tween 5:30-5:50.

Thursday December 3, 200912:38JimB.

12:40

Jim Burrows:

Do you know if there are any twitter hash tags associated wit the event?

Thursday December 3, 200912:40Jim Burrows

12:41

HarryWaisbren:

Not that I know of. Julian has been promoting the tweetchat and linking to us though, so I'm presuming #patriotact is the way to go.

Thursday December 3, 200912:41HarryWaisbren

12:42

Jim Burrows:

Cool

Thursday December 3, 200912:42Jim Burrows

12:42

BleuZ00m:

@wegoted @maddow Heads up: FISA #patriotact Action Hub 1pm PST/4pm EST today:Live Tweetchat w/the @CatoInstitute : http://bit.ly/Qq5VE #p2

Thursday December 3, 200912:42BleuZ00m

12:45

HarryWaisbren:

Cato has picked up quite a cast for this event:

Featuring Julian Sanchez, Research Fellow, Cato Institute; Gregory Nojeim, Senior Counsel, The Center for Democracy and Technology; Jena Baker McNeill, Homeland Security Policy Analyst, The Heritage Foundation; and Richard Samp, Chief Counsel, Washington Legal Foundation. Moderated by Tim Lynch, Director, Project on Criminal Justice, Cato Institute.

Thursday December 3, 200912:45HarryWaisbren

12:48

HarryWaisbren:

The fact that it's a debate should be particularly entertaining. I'll be looking for who's winning against the "Deceptacons Jena Baker McNeil of Heritage and Richard Samp of the Washington Legal Foundation" (as Julian refers to them).

Thursday December 3, 200912:48HarryWaisbren

12:50

HarryWaisbren:

And for anyone joining us who has yet to do so, we hope you'll help sign on to our Open Letter to the President to fix the Patriot Act (through any/all of these ways):

Thursday December 3, 200912:50HarryWaisbren

12:52

logicalextremes:

Ask @BarackObama to support #patriotact reform! - http://act.ly/1fp - Please RT

Thursday December 3, 200912:52logicalextremes

12:52

blanksslate:

@normative 's #patriotact policy forum at @catoinstitute. Join us. Then @reasonmag for festivus activities

Thursday December 3, 200912:52blanksslate

12:54

Jim Burrows:

I assume no one is seeing any feed on their site yet?

Thursday December 3, 200912:54Jim Burrows

12:54

HarryWaisbren:

I'm not

Thursday December 3, 200912:54HarryWaisbren

12:54

[Comment From korkie korkie:]

afternoon

Thursday December 3, 200912:54korkie

12:55

HarryWaisbren:

Hey there Korkie

Thursday December 3, 200912:55HarryWaisbren

12:55

Jim Burrows:

Hi, Korkie

Thursday December 3, 200912:55Jim Burrows

12:55

BleuZ00m:

@strandedwind @GWBProsecution Heads up: FISA #patriotact 1pm PST/4pm EST today:Live Tweetchat w/the @CatoInstitute : http://bit.ly/Qq5VE #p2

Thursday December 3, 200912:55BleuZ00m

12:55

miss_eli:

RT @ARLpolicy @CatoInstitute hosting a (sadly rare) public discussion of #patriotact reform this afternoon @ 4pm EST. http://bit.ly/5xBTdb

Thursday December 3, 200912:55miss_eli

12:56

HarryWaisbren:

I'm not sure why, but it there are some tweets to #patriotact are not being relayed here while others are. Seems like a problem on Cover it Live's end...

Thursday December 3, 200912:56HarryWaisbren

12:56

Jim Burrows:

Yuh. Never saw onw of mine.

Thursday December 3, 200912:56Jim Burrows

12:56

HarryWaisbren:

I don't think this has happened before

Thursday December 3, 200912:56HarryWaisbren

12:56

Jim Burrows:

... one of ...

Thursday December 3, 200912:56Jim Burrows

12:57

korkie:

what's the Cato link please?

Thursday December 3, 200912:57korkie

12:57

Jim Burrows:

http://www.cato.org/event.php?eventid=6792

Thursday December 3, 200912:57Jim Burrows

12:57

HarryWaisbren:

Well, there is a decent amount of traffic to #patriotact as this event is coming up: http://twitter.com/#search?q=%23patriotact

Thursday December 3, 200912:57HarryWaisbren

12:57

BleuZ00m:

@thecaucus (reminder) Heads up: FISA #patriotact 1pm PST/4pm EST today:Live Tweetchat w/the @CatoInstitute : http://bit.ly/Qq5VE #p2

Thursday December 3, 200912:57BleuZ00m

12:59

korkie:

RT @BleuZ00m: @thecaucus (reminder) Heads up: FISA #patriotact 1pm PST/4pm EST today:Live Tweetchat w/the @CatoInstitute : http://bit.ly ...

Thursday December 3, 200912:59korkie

12:59

HarryWaisbren:

Regardless of whether the tweets are relayed here, we can still coordinate what we want to be tweeting out.

The key is summarizing and spreading word of htis event, especially in case some enterprising blogger or journalist wants to pick up the ball on a major story far too few have been covering....

Thursday December 3, 200912:59HarryWaisbren

1:01	Jim Burrows: Just refreshed Firefox manually and have a feed Thursday December 3, 20091:01Jim Burrows

1:01

korkie:

I think I may be re tweeting the long way. I hit the tweet icon on this page, it takes me to twitter and then I hit the rt button there. right?

Thursday December 3, 20091:01korkie

1:01

korkie:

brb

Thursday December 3, 20091:01korkie

1:02	HarryWaisbren: Korkie, It might be easier to have a separate window or tab open for Twitter. Thursday December 3, 20091:02HarryWaisbren

1:02	HarryWaisbren: And I have video as well Thursday December 3, 20091:02HarryWaisbren

1:03

korkie:

so, i'll have three windows open then, correct?

Thursday December 3, 20091:03korkie

1:03	Jim Burrows: The player is bogging down in Firefox, but Safari is crisp. Thursday December 3, 20091:03Jim Burrows

1:04

korkie:

Is there suppose to be something happening on the Cato link?

Thursday December 3, 20091:04korkie

1:04	HarryWaisbren: Yup. We're looking at ways to combine all of this into 1 ideally (the action hub with embedded video and a way to tweet right from there) Thursday December 3, 20091:04HarryWaisbren

1:04	HarryWaisbren: There's video at the Cato link, but no sound yet. seems like they are setting up still. Thursday December 3, 20091:04HarryWaisbren

1:05	Jim Burrows: There is video on the Cato link but I had to manually refresh the page to see it. Thursday December 3, 20091:05Jim Burrows

1:05

korkie:

You have obviously over estimated my skills on the computer.

Thursday December 3, 20091:05korkie

1:06

Hegemommy:

RT @GetFISARight: Watch @Catoinstitute #patriotact event here: http://bit.ly/6AVbjJ Discuss & act here: http://bit.ly/Qq5VE #privacy #tlot

Thursday December 3, 20091:06Hegemommy

1:07	HarryWaisbren: hmmm. are you not seeing a video box (below the "featuring" and above the event explanation text)? Thursday December 3, 20091:07HarryWaisbren

1:07	HarryWaisbren: Introductions beginnning Thursday December 3, 20091:07HarryWaisbren

1:07	Jim Burrows: On the Cato web page hit ctrl/r or cmd/r if you are on a Mac. You should get video and now audio. Thursday December 3, 20091:07Jim Burrows

1:07	HarryWaisbren: "debate in congerss hasn't been a front page news story. Obama signalled that he wanted all provisions renewed". Thursday December 3, 20091:07HarryWaisbren

1:08	HarryWaisbren: "seems clear that the patriot act will be renewed in some form in the near future. If not, by the end of hte year, some kind of extension, early next year". Thursday December 3, 20091:08HarryWaisbren

1:08	HarryWaisbren: Quotes from Tim Lynch, moderating Thursday December 3, 20091:08HarryWaisbren

1:08

korkie:

RT @Hegemommy: RT @GetFISARight: Here are our suggested tweets on our Open Letter to Obama to fix the #patriotact: http://bit.ly/6dDgAH ...

Thursday December 3, 20091:08korkie

1:09	HarryWaisbren: Lynch: what are proper parameters of gov policie powers. Can't have dispassioned debat when there are confusions about waht certain laws and policies do Thursday December 3, 20091:09HarryWaisbren

1:12

korkie:

rt @Brons "All the cool kids" will be at the Cato #patriotact event declares @normative! Well, either there or the (cont) http://tl.gd/15267

Thursday December 3, 20091:12korkie

1:12

GetFISARight:

Tim Lynch of @CatoInstitute: #patriotact debate in congress hasnt been a front page news story. Obama signaled he wanted provisions renewed.

Thursday December 3, 20091:12GetFISARight

1:12

GetFISARight:

Lynch of @CatoInstitute: seems clear that the #patriotact will be renewed in some form in the near future.

Thursday December 3, 20091:12GetFISARight

1:12	HarryWaisbren: Glad to hear Lynch saying that the FISA impact will be discussed as well! Thursday December 3, 20091:12HarryWaisbren

1:14

korkie:

RT @GetFISARight: Lynch of @CatoInstitute: seems clear that the #patriotact will be renewed in some form in the near future.

Thursday December 3, 20091:14korkie

1:14

HarryWaisbren:

Julian: wnat to takea step back nad put these disparate powers in the contxeet of a larger shift in the contours of American surveillance law.

Julian: do need a narrow debate about the policies. Tehsee standards need to be understood int he context of a more genearl change in thew ay we do intelligence collection.

Thursday December 3, 20091:14HarryWaisbren

1:15	HarryWaisbren: Julian: shift I have in mind from surveillance of particular suspects ot populations. to monitoring communiations to sophisticated sorting of communication streams Thursday December 3, 20091:15HarryWaisbren

1:15

HarryWaisbren:

Julian: debate over patriot act tends to be framed over hte apporporaite scope of the gov's power to spy on terorirsts. this is wrong. when we have evidnece that someone is linked to terrorism, ahve a panopoly of incredibly powerful and broad tools.

Julian: powers we are concerned about here today are powers to spy on people who are not terrorists. Justice Departemnt fairly open about this.

Thursday December 3, 20091:15HarryWaisbren

1:17	Jim Burrows: This focus on non-terrorists is really important. I like very much the way he starting. Thursday December 3, 20091:17Jim Burrows

1:17

Brons:

Julian (@normative) is starting with at with a good overview. Points out that USA PATRIOT Act covers spying on non-terrorists #patriotact

Thursday December 3, 20091:17Brons

1:17

GetFISARight:

Julian Sanchez @normative: put these disparate powers in the context of a larger shift in the contours of US surveillance law. #patriotact

Thursday December 3, 20091:17GetFISARight

1:18	HarryWaisbren: sanchez: you are all probably carrying a miniature surveillance device Thursday December 3, 20091:18HarryWaisbren

1:18	HarryWaisbren: Sanchez: need to talk more seriously about what happens to that data Thursday December 3, 20091:18HarryWaisbren

1:19

HarryWaisbren:

Sanchez: our capacity to fruitfully collect and analyze massive amounts of data has grown iwth both technology and the sophistication of our anayltic mathatmetic tools

Sanchez: capable of sorting and collating informaitona bout populations to narrow down to particular targets

Thursday December 3, 20091:19HarryWaisbren

1:19

Brons:

@normative you are all probably carrying a miniature tracking device (waves iPhone) #patriotact

Thursday December 3, 20091:19Brons

1:19

GetFISARight:

Sanchez aka @normative: standards need 2 be understood in context of more general change in way we do intelligence collection. #patriotact

Thursday December 3, 20091:19GetFISARight

1:20

GetFISARight:

Sanchez aka @normative: shift I have in mind from surveillance of particular suspects to populations. #patriotact

Thursday December 3, 20091:20GetFISARight

1:20

korkie:

RT @Brons: @normative you are all probably carrying a miniature tracking device (waves iPhone) #patriotact

Thursday December 3, 20091:20korkie

1:22

korkie:

RT @GetFISARight: Sanchez aka @normative: shift I have in mind from surveillance of particular suspects to populations. #patriotact

Thursday December 3, 20091:22korkie

1:22

GetFISARight:

Sanchez aka @normative: powers we're concerned about are powers 2 spy on people who arent terrorists. DOJ fairly open about this #patriotact

Thursday December 3, 20091:22GetFISARight

1:22

Brons:

@normative gives an excellent run down on implications of data mining and analysis & the HUGE amount of data on non-terrorists #patriotact

Thursday December 3, 20091:22Brons

1:22

GetFISARight:

Sanchez aka @normative: you are all probably carrying a miniature surveillance device #patriotact

Thursday December 3, 20091:22GetFISARight

1:22

GetFISARight:

Sanchez aka @normative: need to talk more seriously about what happens to that data after it's collected. #patriotact

Thursday December 3, 20091:22GetFISARight

1:22

digiphile:

Julian Sanchez (@normative) focuses on the use of the #patriotact for surveillance of non-terrorists. Debate at @latimes: http://j.mp/6sYwAF

Thursday December 3, 20091:22digiphile

1:22	HarryWaisbren: Sanchez on FISA shift: shift form specific targets to algorithsym for targeting. abstract characteristics deciding who can be surveilled. Thursday December 3, 20091:22HarryWaisbren

1:23	HarryWaisbren: Sanchez: default should not be government unfettered power Sanhcez: insist on explanation for why safeguards are unacceptable Thursday December 3, 20091:23HarryWaisbren

1:23

GetFISARight:

Sanchez aka @normative: Sanchez: our capacity to fruitfully collect and analyze massive amounts of data has grown. #patriotact

Thursday December 3, 20091:23GetFISARight

1:23

GetFISARight:

Sanchez aka @normative: capable of sorting and collating info about populations to narrow down to particular targets. #patriotact

Thursday December 3, 20091:23GetFISARight

1:23	HarryWaisbren: Sanchez: causes of intellgience failure not inadequate power, but structurla problems in intelligence agencies Thursday December 3, 20091:23HarryWaisbren

1:26

GetFISARight:

Sanchez aka @normative: insist on explanation for why safeguards are unacceptable. #patriotact

Thursday December 3, 20091:26GetFISARight

1:26

korkie:

RT @GetFISARight: Tim Lynch of @CatoInstitute: #patriotact debate in congress hasnt been a front page news story. Obama signaled he want ...

Thursday December 3, 20091:26korkie

1:26

HarryWaisbren:

Sanchez: if you look at the history of abuses of intelligence powers, it is in fact overwhelmingly that political funciton that has been imperlled by misuse of surveillance powers

Sancehz: with more structural take in mind, I thinkw e need to consider not jsut what are the harms that migh accure now, but what are the archetecture of control.

Sanchez: consistent with strucutre of govnerment asosicated iwht free poeple (applause)

Thursday December 3, 20091:26HarryWaisbren

1:26	Jim Burrows: Allow me to say: WOW!!! That was really good! Thursday December 3, 20091:26Jim Burrows

1:29

GetFISARight:

Sanchez aka @normative: history of abuses of intelligence powers, overwhelmingly democratic discourse imperiled by misuse. #patriotact

Thursday December 3, 20091:29GetFISARight

1:30	HarryWaisbren: That was quite a speech from Julian! Thursday December 3, 20091:30HarryWaisbren

1:30	HarryWaisbren: Wore me out chronicling it and attempting to tweet it out at the same time. Don't believe I'll be able to keep up that pace sadly :) Thursday December 3, 20091:30HarryWaisbren

1:32

Brons:

Gregory Nojeim starts his CATO #patriotact talk on the matter of National Security Letters

Thursday December 3, 20091:32Brons

1:32

korkie:

RT @Brons: Gregory Nojeim starts his CATO #patriotact talk on the matter of National Security Letters

Thursday December 3, 20091:32korkie

1:33

digiphile:

FISA Amendment Act shifted from targeting individuals to algorithms, says @normative. H.R.6304: http://j.mp/8ehvOC #patriotact

Thursday December 3, 20091:33digiphile

1:33

GetFISARight:

Gregory Nojeim of @CenDemTech speaking at @Catoinstitute #patriotact event now

Thursday December 3, 20091:33GetFISARight

1:34

korkie:

RT @GetFISARight: Gregory Nojeim of @CenDemTech speaking at @Catoinstitute #patriotact event now

Thursday December 3, 20091:34korkie

1:34

Brons:

Greg Nojeim lists the many limitations that have been removed from National Security Letters at CATO #patriotact talk

Thursday December 3, 20091:34Brons

1:34	HarryWaisbren: Great job with the summary tweets Jim! I'm off to RT from @GetFISARight Thursday December 3, 20091:34HarryWaisbren

1:34

GetFISARight:

Just joining us? Watch @Catoinstitute #patriotact event here: http://bit.ly/6AVbjJ Discuss & act here: http://bit.ly/Qq5VE #tlot #p2

Thursday December 3, 20091:34GetFISARight

1:34

korkie:

RT @GetFISARight: Just joining us? Watch @Catoinstitute #patriotact event here: http://bit.ly/6AVbjJ Discuss & act here: http://bit.ly/Q ...

Thursday December 3, 20091:34korkie

1:34

Brons:

Greg Nojeim @Catoinstitute #patriotact event: NSLs don't expire this year, but they MUST be addressed

Thursday December 3, 20091:34Brons

1:34

korkie:

RT @Brons: Greg Nojeim lists the many limitations that have been removed from National Security Letters at CATO #patriotact talk

Thursday December 3, 20091:34korkie

1:34	Jim Burrows: OK, But I was using your stuff to do it from. Thursday December 3, 20091:34Jim Burrows

1:35	Jim Burrows: Having notes here really helps. Sigh. Thursday December 3, 20091:35Jim Burrows

1:35

korkie:

RT @Brons: Greg Nojeim @Catoinstitute #patriotact event: NSLs don't expire this year, but they MUST be addressed

Thursday December 3, 20091:35korkie

1:35

GetFISARight:

RT @Brons: Gregory Nojeim starts his CATO #patriotact talk on the matter of National Security Letters

Thursday December 3, 20091:35GetFISARight

1:36	HarryWaisbren: Very true Thursday December 3, 20091:36HarryWaisbren

1:36

GetFISARight:

RT @Brons: Greg Nojeim lists the many limitations that have been removed from National Security Letters at CATO #patriotact talk

Thursday December 3, 20091:36GetFISARight

1:36

GetFISARight:

RT @Brons: Greg Nojeim @Catoinstitute #patriotact event: NSLs don't expire this year, but they MUST be addressed

Thursday December 3, 20091:36GetFISARight

1:36

HarryWaisbren:

Nojeim: patriot act changed existing laws in two ways. expands records that coudl be sought form travle records and storage records to anything. Expanded class of humans about whom records could be sought. Now 215 orders can be used about everyone

Thursday December 3, 20091:36HarryWaisbren

1:37	HarryWaisbren: Nojeim: what can congress do? ought to be some tie between the records sought and the agent of a foreign power, or someone in contact with agent of a foreign power. Nojeim: only provision i'd put on the repeal agenda is lone wolf Thursday December 3, 20091:37HarryWaisbren

1:38	HarryWaisbren: Nojeim: Lone wolf, can do same surveillance, under the criminal authorities. no conduct, no crime, that is available for use under lone wolf authority not also avialalbe under authority of criminal statutes that already exist. Thursday December 3, 20091:38HarryWaisbren

1:39

digiphile:

Gregory Nojeim of @CenDemTech: record of misuse of National Security Letters needs to be addressed. http://epic.org/privacy/nsl #patriotact

Thursday December 3, 20091:39digiphile

1:39

HarryWaisbren:

Nojeim: at the end of hte day, every patirotact power is wielded by mere humans, wiht human frailties, who make mistakes. we have three brnaches of govenrment, a branch to protect our rights, and it's time to have a patriotact that protects our rights too.

Thursday December 3, 20091:39HarryWaisbren

1:40	HarryWaisbren: Jim---if you tweet from Brons I can RT from GFR and keep taking these notes Thursday December 3, 20091:40HarryWaisbren

1:40

Brons:

Nojeim @Catoinstitute #patriotact event: NSLs & sec 215 records need to be tied in some way to a terrorist or an enemy agent.

Thursday December 3, 20091:40Brons

1:40	HarryWaisbren: Mcneil of Heritage coming up Thursday December 3, 20091:40HarryWaisbren

1:41

HarryWaisbren:

Mcneil: want to start iwhta few upfront statmeents that I think need to be made. Insuring that our intellignece and security frameowrks keep americans free, safe, and prosperous is one that everyone shares. No one in this room wants another 9/11.

Mcneil: powers must be met wiht adequate safeguards and rigiourous oversight form all brnaches of gov

Thursday December 3, 20091:41HarryWaisbren

1:41

Brons:

Nojeim @Catoinstitute #patriotact event: Lone Wolf is the 1 provision I would repeal. It is redundant.

Thursday December 3, 20091:41Brons

1:41

korkie:

RT @Brons: Nojeim @Catoinstitute #patriotact event: Lone Wolf is the 1 provision I would repeal. It is redundant.

Thursday December 3, 20091:41korkie

1:42

HarryWaisbren:

Mcneil: 3 questions. has patriotact been successful and will it continue to be.

Mcneil: terorists often manipulate our own liberites against us. we will never completely have an accurate picture of what steps could ahve prevented 9/11, but what we do know is that before 9/11 it was difficult ot connect the dots.

Thursday December 3, 20091:42HarryWaisbren

1:42	HarryWaisbren: Mcnei: upgrades have paid off, helped us modernize our intelligence framework Thursday December 3, 20091:42HarryWaisbren

1:43	HarryWaisbren: Jim, why not cite that @heritage when talking about Mcneil (she's not a part of Cato) Thursday December 3, 20091:43HarryWaisbren

1:43	HarryWaisbren: Mcneil: since 2001 there have been at least 27 plots foiled against US. From shoe bomber plot ot Zazi, to skyscraper plot Thursday December 3, 20091:43HarryWaisbren

1:43

[Comment From jon jon:]

hi all, my previous phone call ran long ...

Thursday December 3, 20091:43jon

1:43	Jim Burrows: Dunno. Thursday December 3, 20091:43Jim Burrows

1:44	HarryWaisbren: Mcneil: 2000 indiviudals in britain alone directly connected to terorirst plots. Thursday December 3, 20091:44HarryWaisbren

1:44	HarryWaisbren: Mcneil: section 215, business records provision, helps track day to day actions of terroirst networks Thursday December 3, 20091:44HarryWaisbren

1:44

BleuZ00m:

#patriotact Now up: Jenna McNeill/Heritage Foundation: Invoking 9/11, 'these upgrades have paid off.'

Thursday December 3, 20091:44BleuZ00m

1:44

korkie:

RT @BleuZ00m: #patriotact Now up: Jenna McNeill/Heritage Foundation: Invoking 9/11, 'these upgrades have paid off.'

Thursday December 3, 20091:44korkie

1:44	HarryWaisbren: No worries Jon (sorry it took a while to see your comment) Thursday December 3, 20091:44HarryWaisbren

1:46	HarryWaisbren: Mcneil: lone wolf lack of use is evidence that lawmakers aren't overusing. Thursday December 3, 20091:46HarryWaisbren

1:46

Brons:

Mcneil #patriotact: Mcneil: since 2001 there have been at least 27 plots foiled against US. From shoe bomber plot 2 Zazi, 2 skyscraper plot

Thursday December 3, 20091:46Brons

1:46

BleuZ00m:

#patriotact Jenna McNeill/Heritage Foundation defends the "Lone Wolf and Section 215 ( business records) and roving wiretaps."

Thursday December 3, 20091:46BleuZ00m

1:46

Brons:

Mcneil @Catoinstitute #patriotact event: section 215, business records provision, helps track day to day actions of terroirst networks

Thursday December 3, 20091:46Brons

1:46

korkie:

RT @Brons: Mcneil @Catoinstitute #patriotact event: section 215, business records provision, helps track day to day actions of terroirst ...

Thursday December 3, 20091:46korkie

1:47	HarryWaisbren: Mcneil: judiciary signifanct source of oversight. All sorts of provisiosn to make sure these things aren't blank checks woww....... Thursday December 3, 20091:47HarryWaisbren

1:47	HarryWaisbren: Mcneil: need to look at the costs and the benfits. Adding more govenrmetn and more bureacracy to more govenrmetn and more beauracracy doesn't make sense of rhte kick of it. Thursday December 3, 20091:47HarryWaisbren

1:47	HarryWaisbren: Mcneil: more than what is required in a criminal setting and the constitution, seems to be of marginal benefit to add even more. Mcneil: begs real quetsion of whether there is a need. Thursday December 3, 20091:47HarryWaisbren

1:48

korkie:

RT @BleuZ00m: #patriotact Jenna McNeill/Heritage Foundation defends the "Lone Wolf and Section 215 ( business records) and roving wiretaps."

Thursday December 3, 20091:48korkie

1:48

Brons:

McNeil @Catoinstitute #patriotact event: claims that FIS requires "probable cause".

Thursday December 3, 20091:48Brons

1:48

korkie:

RT @Brons: McNeil @Catoinstitute #patriotact event: claims that FIS requires "probable cause".

Thursday December 3, 20091:48korkie

1:48

Brons:

McNeil @Catoinstitute #patriotact event: lone wolf lack of use is evidence that lawmakers aren't overusing.

Thursday December 3, 20091:48Brons

1:48

HarryWaisbren:

Mcnei: several costs. Adding more restrictiosn isn't free.

Mcneil: significant cost of undermining the law. Biggest cost of all. Run risk of chilling hands of investigators to do their job. Second, run ruisk that terorirsts will see gap to exploit. Terrorists are creative.

Thursday December 3, 20091:48HarryWaisbren

1:49

korkie:

RT @Brons: McNeil @Catoinstitute #patriotact event: lone wolf lack of use is evidence that lawmakers aren't overusing.

Thursday December 3, 20091:49korkie

1:49

Brons:

McNeil #patriotact event: judiciary signifanct source of oversight. All sorts of provisiosn to make sure these things aren't blank checks

Thursday December 3, 20091:49Brons

1:49

digiphile:

Jena Baker McNeill of @Heritage says #patriotact "upgrades paid off," pointing to Lackawanna 6, Portland 7. @LATimes: http://j.mp/5szy62

Thursday December 3, 20091:49digiphile

1:49

korkie:

RT @Brons: McNeil #patriotact event: judiciary signifanct source of oversight. All sorts of provisiosn to make sure these things aren't ...

Thursday December 3, 20091:49korkie

1:49

HarryWaisbren:

Mcneil: can play game of adding more layers at each stage. Each layer sends a emssage. Can tkae down the wall that we worked os hard to break down after 9/11. If there are abuses should be remedied immediately. Should only be done with a very careful hand

Thursday December 3, 20091:49HarryWaisbren

1:50

BleuZ00m:

#patriotact Jenna McNeill/Heritage Foundation: (her statements deny the abuses of NSLs, roving wiretaps Carnivore actually have been used.)

Thursday December 3, 20091:50BleuZ00m

1:50

korkie:

RT @BleuZ00m: #patriotact Jenna McNeill/Heritage Foundation: (her statements deny the abuses of NSLs, roving wiretaps Carnivore actually ...

Thursday December 3, 20091:50korkie

1:51	HarryWaisbren: Richard Samp of Washington Legal Foundation speaking now Thursday December 3, 20091:51HarryWaisbren

1:51

[Comment From Amy Ringenbach Amy Ringenbach:]

#PatriotAct Jenna McNeill/Heritage Foundation: (her statements deny the abuses of NSLs, roving wiretaps Carnivore actually have been used.)

Thursday December 3, 20091:51Amy Ringenbach

1:51

Brons:

McNeil @Catoinstitute event: claims that many #patriotact processes have more limits than what is required in a criminal setting

Thursday December 3, 20091:51Brons

1:51

korkie:

RT @Brons: McNeil @Catoinstitute event: claims that many #patriotact processes have more limits than what is required in a criminal setting

Thursday December 3, 20091:51korkie

1:51

hellrazr:

RT @GetFISARight: Sanchez aka @normative: not just harms that might accrue now, but what the arcitechture of control developing. #patriotact

Thursday December 3, 20091:51hellrazr

1:51	HarryWaisbren: Samp: simply because there is the potnetial of abuse, deosn't mean we ahve to add additional layers of bureacracy that have hte tendancy to slow down national security investigations iwth sometimes catastrophic results Thursday December 3, 20091:51HarryWaisbren

1:51	HarryWaisbren: Samp: minor proivsions up for renewal provides good example, lone wolf. Thursday December 3, 20091:51HarryWaisbren

1:52

GetFISARight:

Collaborative livetweeting btw us, @brons, & @korkie. Head to #patriotact action hub for that & more disc in chat room: http://bit.ly/Qq5VE

Thursday December 3, 20091:52GetFISARight

1:52

Brons:

McNeil @Catoinstitute event: The cost of tinkering #patriotact is that it changes the law and confuses or demoralizes law enforcement

Thursday December 3, 20091:52Brons

1:52

korkie:

RT @Brons: McNeil @Catoinstitute event: The cost of tinkering #patriotact is that it changes the law and confuses or demoralizes law enf ...

Thursday December 3, 20091:52korkie

1:52

korkie:

RT @GetFISARight: Collaborative livetweeting btw us, @brons, & @korkie. Head to #patriotact action hub for that & more disc in chat room ...

Thursday December 3, 20091:52korkie

1:52

HarryWaisbren:

Samp: lone wolf allows the government to go after indiviudals even though there isn't evidence that htey are directly affiliated with some foreign power or some terorirst organizaiton

Samp: argument that has gone on in the past, is waht about mousavi. Arrested prior to 9/11. Some investigations going on into him, but unfortunately never serach of his comptuer records. Had there been so, some indication that perhaps information regarding the 9/11 plot might have been uncovered in time.

Thursday December 3, 20091:52HarryWaisbren

1:53

BleuZ00m:

#patriotact Now:Richard Samp, Chief Counsel, Washington Legal Foundation: http://bit.ly/6AVbjJ Discuss & act here: http://bit.ly/Qq5VE

Thursday December 3, 20091:53BleuZ00m

1:54

korkie:

RT @BleuZ00m: #patriotact Now:Richard Samp, Chief Counsel, Washington Legal Foundation: http://bit.ly/6AVbjJ Discuss & act here: http:/ ...

Thursday December 3, 20091:54korkie

1:54

Brons:

Samp @Catoinstitute #patriotact event: potential 4 abuse doesnt require layers of bureaucracy 2 slow down LE & invest, perhaps dangerously.

Thursday December 3, 20091:54Brons

1:54

HarryWaisbren:

Samp: I'm sure you'll hear from other speakres arguments as to whose fault was that. No question there was a lot of bureacratic fumbling going on. Arugmetns that it's not lack of tools, just bungling.

Samp: here tot ell you bureacracy is always a problem with goenrment. never have someone doing the perfect investigation. Why something like the lone wolf provision is an importnat one.

Samp: it has never been used. But if you had a proivsion of htat type, It hink there is no question that someone like Mousavi would ahve been potentially a target of this sort of lone wolf investigation and you could ahve gotten faster access to his recors.

Thursday December 3, 20091:54HarryWaisbren

1:54

korkie:

RT @Brons: Samp @Catoinstitute #patriotact event: potential 4 abuse doesnt require layers of bureaucracy 2 slow down LE & invest, perhap ...

Thursday December 3, 20091:54korkie

1:55

HarryWaisbren:

Samp: 3 provisions up for renewal. Everyone says 'of course there iwll be renewal, no one is oposed to storng nationals ecurity privisons, jstu whta are specific details'. Already an awful lot of safeguards in place in respect ot tehse, and the position of hte Obama administraiton is a storng testament to the existence of adequate safeguads.

Samp: Sen. Obama was not a supporter of Patriot Act when he ran for senate. Was a critic of renewal in 2005. Yet Obama administration has come out strongly in favor of renewal

Jim/Korkie/Amy---please RT this to @barackobama---craziness.

Thursday December 3, 20091:55HarryWaisbren

1:55

Brons:

Samp (#patriotact event): Lone wolf would have allowed fater access to the records of Mousavi

Thursday December 3, 20091:55Brons

1:55

korkie:

RT @Brons: Samp (#patriotact event): Lone wolf would have allowed fater access to the records of Mousavi

Thursday December 3, 20091:55korkie

1:56

Brons:

Samp (#patriotact event): There are already a lot of safeguards and the support of the Obama administraion is evidence that they suffice

Thursday December 3, 20091:56Brons

1:56	HarryWaisbren: Samp: importnat to have discussions of this sort. If we pass the law as currently proposed, will be sunset provision, so in 2013, if there is evidenc of abuse, will be avote on reviewing/reforming/eliminating it. Thursday December 3, 20091:56HarryWaisbren

1:57

HarryWaisbren:

Samp: material support for terrorist organizations. Supreme court took up meaning of this term. has proved to be an important feature of the law.

Samp: lynn stewart serving a jail sentence under it. NY attorney that directly assisted terrorist organiaoin in Egypt by serving as a conduit btw jailed leader and its members back in Egypt.

Thursday December 3, 20091:57HarryWaisbren

1:58

HarryWaisbren:

Samp: under Feingold, would say, it's not so bad to give mateiral support ot these orgs like hamas or al qaeda, so far as you are supporting humanitarian efforts of these groups

nasty. this is another point that should definitely be RTed as well. bet he's lying through his teeth....

Thursday December 3, 20091:58HarryWaisbren

1:58

BleuZ00m:

#patriotact Now:Richard Samp/Washington Legal Fnd discusses NSL constraints.http://bit.ly/6AVbjJ Discuss & act here: http://bit.ly/Qq5VE

Thursday December 3, 20091:58BleuZ00m

1:58

Brons:

Samp (#patriotact event): The Dept. of Justice is in favor of renewal without these additional limitations, and they know the secret stuff

Thursday December 3, 20091:58Brons

1:58

Brons:

Samp (#patriotact event): The Feingold law would hamstring the material support provision. It is a very important part of that law.

Thursday December 3, 20091:58Brons

1:58

korkie:

RT @Brons: Samp (#patriotact event): The Feingold law would hamstring the material support provision. It is a very important part of tha ...

Thursday December 3, 20091:58korkie

1:58

HarryWaisbren:

Samp: if you provide support for Hamas, even though you tell them you wan it designated for their humanitarian activiites, that is just one more asset that they then have that they can divert to others of their assets to procuring arms and continuing thier terroist assault on Israel.

Samp: really do need to keep many of these provisions in place.

Thursday December 3, 20091:58HarryWaisbren

2:00

HarryWaisbren:

Samp: sneak and peek provisions in the law basically says that law enforcement people don't need to tell the target of their investigation that in fact they have started their search activitiy. Tehy can delay it.

Samp: fact is that sneak and peek provision has been in place long before the patriot act was adopted. US supreme court in US vs Dalia said that these types of searches are reasonable seraches nad seizures iswithin the meaning of the 4th amendment.

Thursday December 3, 20092:00HarryWaisbren

2:00

Brons:

Samp (#patriotact event): important to have discussions of this sort. If we pass the law as currently proposed, will be sunsetted

Thursday December 3, 20092:00Brons

2:00

korkie:

RT @Brons: Samp (#patriotact event): important to have discussions of this sort. If we pass the law as currently proposed, will be sunsetted

Thursday December 3, 20092:00korkie

2:00

Brons:

Samp (#patriotact event): if you provide support for Hamas, even designated for their humanitarian activiites it frees resources for terror

Thursday December 3, 20092:00Brons

2:01

korkie:

i dropped cato link . please post

Thursday December 3, 20092:01korkie

2:01

HarryWaisbren:

Julian: upfront, I would normally be delighted to join in fight against more gov and bureacracy as characterization.

Julian: question of intel failures before 9/11, discussion of connecting the dots. Is also one of the thigns patriot act did that isn't up for debate or on the table now. No one is discussing changing.

Thursday December 3, 20092:01HarryWaisbren

2:01	HarryWaisbren: it's at the otp of the page Korkie (in the action hub desciription) Thursday December 3, 20092:01HarryWaisbren

2:01

Amy Ringenbach:

Korkie, here's the CATO feed link: http://bit.ly/6AVbjJ

Thursday December 3, 20092:01Amy Ringenbach

2:02

HarryWaisbren:

Julian: problem that you need fewer limitations or power, or did someone screw up. Someone screwed up is unlikely to be the anwer especially when access to details is limited.

Julian: senate investigated what happend with mousavi. Wasn't judicially imposed wall btw intellignece and criinal investgiaiton.

Thursday December 3, 20092:02HarryWaisbren

2:02

BleuZ00m:

#patriotact Now: Samp/WashLegalFndn: refutes proposed material support changes re: Lynn Stewart case;defends SneakNPeek. http://bit.ly/Qq5VE

Thursday December 3, 20092:02BleuZ00m

2:02

HarryWaisbren:

Julian: limits have been vastly overstaed. bipartisan senate report concluded that in fact FSIA orde could have een obtained to lack at Mousavi's computer, a criinal warrant could have, and in fact, on 9/11, before passage of patriot act, they got it togehter and immediatley did obtain with same facturla predicate they had to get a criminal warrant to get Mousavi's laptop

Thursday December 3, 20092:02HarryWaisbren

2:03

Brons:

Samp (event): fact is that sneak and peek provision has been in place long before the #patriotact was adopted. SCOTUS in Dalia said its OK

Thursday December 3, 20092:03Brons

2:03

korkie:

RT @BleuZ00m: #patriotact Now: Samp/WashLegalFndn: refutes proposed material support changes re: Lynn Stewart case;defends SneakNPeek. h ...

Thursday December 3, 20092:03korkie

2:03	HarryWaisbren: Julian: i'm not sure why we should think lone wolf power would have been used. why would ti ahve been uused if they didn't use the power they did have? Thursday December 3, 20092:03HarryWaisbren

2:03	HarryWaisbren: Julian: serious enough threat without level of inflation we get in some of these discussions Another key part to RT (i'm doing it now from GFR) Thursday December 3, 20092:03HarryWaisbren

2:04

korkie:

RT @Brons: Samp (event): fact is that sneak and peek provision has been in place long before the #patriotact was adopted. SCOTUS in Dali ...

Thursday December 3, 20092:04korkie

2:04	HarryWaisbren: Jima nd Korkie---you two are doing fantastic work here! Keep it up. We're getting a ton of tweets out :) Thursday December 3, 20092:04HarryWaisbren

2:05

Brons:

@normative (#patriotact event): Mousavi, the issue wasn't a lack of laws. FISA could have been used a crimnal warrant could 2.

Thursday December 3, 20092:05Brons

2:05

korkie:

RT @BleuZ00m: #patriotact Now:Richard Samp/Washington Legal Fnd discusses NSL constraints.http://bit.ly/6AVbjJ Discuss & act here: http: ...

Thursday December 3, 20092:05korkie

2:05

GetFISARight:

Sanchez aka @normative: there is a serious enough threat without level of inflation we get in some of these discussions. #patriotact

Thursday December 3, 20092:05GetFISARight

2:05

Brons:

@normative (#patriotact event): why in Mousavi would they have used "Lone Wolf" when they didn't use the powers that they then had.

Thursday December 3, 20092:05Brons

2:05

digiphile:

Richard Samp, chief counsel at CLF, argued #patriotact includes safeguards, allows faster action, DoJ favors renewal w/o more limitations.

Thursday December 3, 20092:05digiphile

2:05

korkie:

RT @digiphile: Richard Samp, chief counsel at CLF, argued #patriotact includes safeguards, allows faster action, DoJ favors renewal w/o ...

Thursday December 3, 20092:05korkie

2:05

BleuZ00m:

#patriotact Julian Sanchez/CATO states laws, procedures already existed BEFORE 9/11 to track, capture KSM, Lackawanna 6.Intel told us this.

Thursday December 3, 20092:05BleuZ00m

2:05

Brons:

@normative (#patriotact event): USA PATRIOT Act would not have improved the visual accuity of the people who saw sum1 lighting his shoe.

Thursday December 3, 20092:05Brons

2:05

korkie:

RT @Brons: @normative (#patriotact event): USA PATRIOT Act would not have improved the visual accuity of the people who saw sum1 lightin ...

Thursday December 3, 20092:05korkie

2:06

HarryWaisbren:

Julian: what is invariably left out is the differences in the frameowkr of cirminal law and the different framework of FISA surveillance. broader in its inception, and missing the crucial backend check.

Julian: grnad jury subpeona, nexus to an actual crime that is believed to have been committed. Purpose is to acqurie evidecne ofr use in a public trial. Conduct of investigators is exposed. Incentive to behave in a way that will allwo that intellgience to be used.

Thursday December 3, 20092:06HarryWaisbren

2:06	Jim Burrows: last couple were sent in wrong order by me. Thursday December 3, 20092:06Jim Burrows

2:06

HarryWaisbren:

Julian: numbers we have are fuzzy becaus teh OIG said that there were 200,000 NSLs issued. Yet becasue fo reporting problems, nubmer was 20% low.

Julian: probelms found were thorugh a tiny subset. Can not meaningfully oversee 200,000 National Security Letters

200,000 anotehr great one to RT

Thursday December 3, 20092:06HarryWaisbren

2:07	HarryWaisbren: no worries on the order Jim Thursday December 3, 20092:07HarryWaisbren

2:07	HarryWaisbren: Nojeim: oversight not a new layer of bureacracy. Judicial permission when very sensitivve records about peopel are being sought by a law enforcement or intellignee agency. Nojeim: has been important protection of people for a long time Thursday December 3, 20092:07HarryWaisbren

2:07

Brons:

@normative (#patriotact event): serious enough threat without level of inflation we get in some of these discussions

Thursday December 3, 20092:07Brons

2:07

korkie:

RT @Brons: @normative (#patriotact event): serious enough threat without level of inflation we get in some of these discussions

Thursday December 3, 20092:07korkie

2:08	HarryWaisbren: Nojeim: is sneak and peek a counterterrorism power? I don't think so, and if it is, it should be limited to counter-terrorism powers. Thursday December 3, 20092:08HarryWaisbren

2:09	HarryWaisbren: Nojeim: yes, message of mistrust. whole documetn about mistrust of the goverment, it's called the constiuttion (applause) Thursday December 3, 20092:09HarryWaisbren

2:09

Brons:

Samp (#patriotact event): Sneak and peek number don't bear out the need for new laws for terror. 99.5% of sneak peek not used for terrorism!

Thursday December 3, 20092:09Brons

2:10

korkie:

RT @Brons: Samp (#patriotact event): Sneak and peek number don't bear out the need for new laws for terror. 99.5% of sneak peek not used ...

Thursday December 3, 20092:10korkie

2:10

korkie:

RT @Brons: Samp (#patriotact event): There is a whole document about mistrust of the gov't. It's called the Constitution. That's the point.

Thursday December 3, 20092:10korkie

2:10

HarryWaisbren:

Nojeim: don't think we need to spend a lot of time on lone wolf. Never been used, and by the way, what happened to public reporting.

Nojeim: Lone wolf, for years, DOJ said we cna't tell you how many tiems it has been used, because to review that, would threaten natioanl security. All of a sudden they could tell us, same thin with 215.

Thursday December 3, 20092:10HarryWaisbren

2:11	Jim Burrows: I got names wrong Not SAMP. Thursday December 3, 20092:11Jim Burrows

2:11	HarryWaisbren: Nojeim: could be more disclosure iwthout harming natioanl security Thursday December 3, 20092:11HarryWaisbren

2:11

korkie:

RT @BleuZ00m: #patriotact: Sanchez: Potential problems found were thru a tiny subset of NSL letters Can not meaningfully oversee 200,000 ...

Thursday December 3, 20092:11korkie

2:11	HarryWaisbren: I'd just tweet out quick that the last few were Nojeim. Dont' wrory too much about it Thursday December 3, 20092:11HarryWaisbren

2:12

Brons:

Nojeim (not Samp) (#patriotact event): There is a whole document about mistrust of the gov't. It's called the Constitution. That's the point

Thursday December 3, 20092:12Brons

2:12	HarryWaisbren: Mcneil: need to look at the natioanl security side. Are poeple who think you don't need to. Mcneil: about ability of gov to keep secrets, I do think they do keep secrets, and they will whether there is a patriot act or not. Thursday December 3, 20092:12HarryWaisbren

2:12	HarryWaisbren: Mcneil: patriotact encourages honesty, but also encourages us to tackle acts of terrorism. If we don't have a framewokr, they'll do it anyways. Thursday December 3, 20092:12HarryWaisbren

2:12

korkie:

RT @Brons: Nojeim (not Samp) (#patriotact event): There is a whole document about mistrust of the gov't. It's called the Constitution. T ...

Thursday December 3, 20092:12korkie

2:12

digiphile:

"There is a whole document about mistrust of the government. It's called the Constitution"-Nojeim on need for #patriotact judicial oversight

Thursday December 3, 20092:12digiphile

2:12

Brons:

McNeil (#patriotact event): I have a problem when the people who say "we just want to improve it" also hate it & want it gone

Thursday December 3, 20092:12Brons

2:13	HarryWaisbren: real limitd govenrment supporter htere....gov will spy on everyone anyways, so that's ok Thursday December 3, 20092:13HarryWaisbren

2:13	HarryWaisbren: heritage must be so proud Thursday December 3, 20092:13HarryWaisbren

2:13

korkie:

RT @Brons: McNeil (#patriotact event): I have a problem when the people who say "we just want to improve it" also hate it & want it gone

Thursday December 3, 20092:13korkie

2:13	Jim Burrows: Gad I hate listening to a perky support. Thursday December 3, 20092:13Jim Burrows

2:14	HarryWaisbren: Mcneil: lone wolf provision, just becasue we havne't used it, doens't mean it's not valuable Mcneil: haven't used president's nuclear football, but helpful to have it avialable. Thursday December 3, 20092:14HarryWaisbren

2:14

Amy Ringenbach:

#PatriotAct McNeill/Heritage Fndn defends the current FISA provisions:'Just because we've never used Lone Wolf is no reason to lose it.'

Thursday December 3, 20092:14Amy Ringenbach

2:14	HarryWaisbren: Samp: Mousavi, the problem was that people who were investigating thought theyw ould not be able to get an order from teh FISA court. Others said that was wrong, but that's what happens when you have bureacracies. Thursday December 3, 20092:14HarryWaisbren

2:14

Brons:

McNeil (#patriotact event): The USA PATRIOT act is a good framework. It has adequate safeguards, and they'd do it anyway w/o it

Thursday December 3, 20092:14Brons

2:14

korkie:

RT @Brons: McNeil (#patriotact event): The USA PATRIOT act is a good framework. It has adequate safeguards, and they'd do it anyway w/o it

Thursday December 3, 20092:14korkie

2:15	HarryWaisbren: Samp: bureacratic stalemate. People think, if I seek an orer, and the court turns me down, that's bad for the records, so if it's all a close case, I won't seek it Thursday December 3, 20092:15HarryWaisbren

2:15	HarryWaisbren: Is Samp completely making up this argument as he's going on? "oh, I don't want to have a court turned me down. I'll just let the terrorists win because I'm an evil bureacrat (not an american public servant)". Thursday December 3, 20092:15HarryWaisbren

2:15

BleuZ00m:

#patriotact McNeill/Heritage Fndn defends the current FISA provisions:'Just because we've never used Lone Wolf is no reason to lose it.'

Thursday December 3, 20092:15BleuZ00m

2:15

Brons:

McNeil (#patriotact event): We don't use the Pres's Nuclear Football. Not using something says nothing about importance.

Thursday December 3, 20092:15Brons

2:16	HarryWaisbren: Samp: latest version of the law has a special provision to make it impossible to do any library investigations. HOpefully will not refer to 215 as library provision any more. Thursday December 3, 20092:16HarryWaisbren

2:16

korkie:

RT @BleuZ00m: #patriotact McNeill/Heritage Fndn defends the current FISA provisions:'Just because we've never used Lone Wolf is no reaso ...

Thursday December 3, 20092:16korkie

2:16

Brons:

Samp (#patriotact event): People don't want to try to use a law & fail cause it will look bad. That's why they didn't use the existing laws.

Thursday December 3, 20092:16Brons

2:17

HarryWaisbren:

Samp: in terms of judicial oversight, agree with speakers, the more judicial oversight you ahve of executive brnach functions the better. Why they ought to be joining me in applauding congress for adopint g FISA amendments act.

say whaaaaaat?

Thursday December 3, 20092:17HarryWaisbren

2:17

Amy Ringenbach:

#PatriotAct Samp/WashLegalFndn defends former AG Mukasey's statements regarding intrusive FISA, poohpoohs its abuses.

Thursday December 3, 20092:17Amy Ringenbach

2:17	HarryWaisbren: Question and answer section now Thursday December 3, 20092:17HarryWaisbren

2:17

korkie:

RT @Brons: Samp (#patriotact event): People don't want to try to use a law & fail cause it will look bad. That's why they didn't use the ...

Thursday December 3, 20092:17korkie

2:17

Brons:

Samp (#patriotact event): People want to get rid of the whole thing are the ones calling sec 215 the library provision

Thursday December 3, 20092:17Brons

2:17

korkie:

RT @BleuZ00m: #patriotact Samp/WashLegalFndn defends former AG Mukasey's statements regarding intrusive FISA, poohpoohs its abuses.

Thursday December 3, 20092:17korkie

2:18	HarryWaisbren: Let's all make sure to RT the differnet ways people can sign onto our open letter. Thursday December 3, 20092:18HarryWaisbren

2:18

korkie:

RT @Brons: Samp (#patriotact event): People want to get rid of the whole thing are the ones calling sec 215 the library provision

Thursday December 3, 20092:18korkie

2:18

Brons:

Samp (#patriotact event): latest version of the law has a special provision to make it impossible to do any library investigations.

Thursday December 3, 20092:18Brons

2:18

Brons:

Samp (#patriotact event): points out that the FISA Amendment act di add judicial oversight. I hope you will join me in applauding

Thursday December 3, 20092:18Brons

2:19

korkie:

I'll rt after the meeting

Thursday December 3, 20092:19korkie

2:19

korkie:

RT @Brons: Samp (#patriotact event): points out that the FISA Amendment act di add judicial oversight. I hope you will join me in applauding

Thursday December 3, 20092:19korkie

2:19

GetFISARight:

You can sign our Open Letter to Obama by RTing this #actly: Ask @BarackObama to support #patriotact reform! http://act.ly/1fp Please RT

Thursday December 3, 20092:19GetFISARight

2:19

korkie:

ok ...... I'll do it now!!

Thursday December 3, 20092:19korkie

2:20	HarryWaisbren: you're rocking with the RTing Korkie, do it as you see fit Thursday December 3, 20092:20HarryWaisbren

2:20

GetFISARight:

You can sign our Open Letter to @BarackObama to fix the #patriotact at @BORDC: http://bit.ly/8Pzd4o

Thursday December 3, 20092:20GetFISARight

2:20

Brons:

audience (#patriotact event): What a snowstorm! "Shoe bomber"? "Printing boarding passes in library"? Not relevant.

Thursday December 3, 20092:20Brons

2:20

GetFISARight:

You can sign our Open Letter to @BarackObama to fix the #patriotact at @Change: http://bit.ly/7T02BS

Thursday December 3, 20092:20GetFISARight

2:20

korkie:

RT @Brons: audience (#patriotact event): What a snowstorm! "Shoe bomber"? "Printing boarding passes in library"? Not relevant.

Thursday December 3, 20092:20korkie

2:20

Amy Ringenbach:

#PatriotAct Q&A now, fr audience: "I wasn't expecting a blizzard!" (laughter) challenging McNeill/Heritage assertions. Her reply:dismissive

Thursday December 3, 20092:20Amy Ringenbach

2:21

GetFISARight:

You can sign our Open Letter to @BarackObama to fix the #patriotact at @care2: http://bit.ly/7ctiyd

Thursday December 3, 20092:21GetFISARight

2:21

korkie:

RT @GetFISARight: You can sign our Open Letter to @BarackObama to fix the #patriotact at @care2: http://bit.ly/7ctiyd

Thursday December 3, 20092:21korkie

2:21

Brons:

McNeil (#patriotact event): We're still in danger and that's my point in bring up all these threats.

Thursday December 3, 20092:21Brons

2:21

korkie:

RT @GetFISARight: You can sign our Open Letter to @BarackObama to fix the #patriotact at @Change: http://bit.ly/7T02BS

Thursday December 3, 20092:21korkie

2:21

Brons:

McNeil (#patriotact event): Gag orders: We don't knock on the terrorists door and tell them that "Hey, we're surveiling you".

Thursday December 3, 20092:21Brons

2:21

korkie:

RT @GetFISARight: You can sign our Open Letter to Obama by RTing this #actly: Ask @BarackObama to support #patriotact reform! http://act ...

Thursday December 3, 20092:21korkie

2:22

Jaison96:

RT @GetFISARight: You can sign our Open Letter to @BarackObama to fix the #patriotact at @BORDC: http://bit.ly/8Pzd4o #p2

Thursday December 3, 20092:22Jaison96

2:22	HarryWaisbren: Nojeim: we don't tell people that to speak you ahve to wait a year. Nojeim: legislation that will pass will fix the gag orders Thursday December 3, 20092:22HarryWaisbren

2:23	Jim Burrows: Nojeim (#patriotact event): we don't tell people that to speak you ahve to wait a year. Thursday December 3, 20092:23Jim Burrows

2:23

korkie:

RT @Brons: McNeil (#patriotact event): We're still in danger and that's my point in bring up all these threats.

Thursday December 3, 20092:23korkie

2:23

Jaison96:

RT @GetFISARight: You can sign our Open Letter to @BarackObama to fix the #patriotact at @Change: http://bit.ly/7T02BS #p2

Thursday December 3, 20092:23Jaison96

2:24

Jaison96:

RT @GetFISARight: You can sign our Open Letter to @BarackObama to fix the #patriotact at @care2: http://bit.ly/7ctiyd #p2

Thursday December 3, 20092:24Jaison96

2:24

BleuZ00m:

#patriotact Q&A now, fr audience: "I wasn't expecting a blizzard!" (laughter) challenging McNeill/Heritage assertions. Her reply:dismissive

Thursday December 3, 20092:24BleuZ00m

2:24

GetFISARight:

@Jaison96 thx for RTing: You can sign our Open Letter to @BarackObama to fix the #patriotact at @BORDC: http://bit.ly/8Pzd4o #p2

Thursday December 3, 20092:24GetFISARight

2:24

korkie:

RT @Brons: Nojeim (#patriotact event): we don't tell people that to speak you ahve to wait a year.

Thursday December 3, 20092:24korkie

2:24

HarryWaisbren:

Juilain: issue is wehther the process invovles such incredible deference to executive assertions of natioanl security.

Julian: challenge to gage orders from people who want to talk about what they saw as excessively broad deployemnt of those letters in ways they thought implicated broader liberties.

Juilain: if we want effective oversight, need to make it possible for opeple to meaningfully challenge and get the word out unless there is some kind of compelling showing that requires them to remain silent.

Thursday December 3, 20092:24HarryWaisbren

2:25	Jim Burrows: I have to sign off soon. I don't think I can keep this up much any longer. Go 4 it! Thursday December 3, 20092:25Jim Burrows

2:26

korkie:

RT @Brons: Nojeim (#patriotact event): If an NSL is used to get data about you, it doesn't go to you. The people it goes to have no ince ...

Thursday December 3, 20092:26korkie

2:26

korkie:

oh dear .... I can't summarize. I'll continue to rt tho

Thursday December 3, 20092:26korkie

2:26	Jim Burrows: I will be stopping before the Juilian bits above. Start with them. Thursday December 3, 20092:26Jim Burrows

2:26	HarryWaisbren: Jim, thanks so much, really gerat work. Korkie, i'll try ot tweet from GFR and you can RT those Thursday December 3, 20092:26HarryWaisbren

2:27

GetFISARight:

Sanchez aka @normative: issue is whether process involves such incredible deference 2 executive assertions of national security. #patriotact

Thursday December 3, 20092:27GetFISARight

2:28

GetFISARight:

Sanchez aka @normative: if we want effective oversight, need to make it possible to meaningfully challenge and get the word out. #patriotact

Thursday December 3, 20092:28GetFISARight

2:28	HarryWaisbren: Question to people on the right about how far they are willing to go for national security in terms of limiting liberty. Thursday December 3, 20092:28HarryWaisbren

2:29	HarryWaisbren: how much are you willing to icnrease the goenrment's power Thursday December 3, 20092:29HarryWaisbren

2:29	HarryWaisbren: Mcneil: easy answer for me, and it's called the constitution. That's where the limits are drawn. Thursday December 3, 20092:29HarryWaisbren

2:29

korkie:

RT @GetFISARight: You can sign our Open Letter to @BarackObama to fix the #patriotact at @BORDC: http://bit.ly/8Pzd4o

Thursday December 3, 20092:29korkie

2:30

Amy Ringenbach:

How McNeill can invoke the Constitution as the limiter of the patriot act provisions when Julian, Shahid, the ACLU et all have stated otherwise. She really is clueless. IMHO

Thursday December 3, 20092:30Amy Ringenbach

2:31

HarryWaisbren:

Samp: the focus on this law is not really domestic activity at all, is really foreign terroirst activity,a nd it ought to stay that way.

Nojeim: let me makea case that the constitution isn't good enough. Cites business records documetn. Why bank has to turn over financial records, 4th amendment doesn't protect it.

Nojeim: do we want to livei n a coutnry where the rule is where any time someone holds a records about you, law enorcement can get it with no rules?

Thursday December 3, 20092:31HarryWaisbren

2:32

GetFISARight:

Nojeim of @cendemtech: do we want to live in a country where the rule is anytime someone holds a record about u, gov can get it? #patriotact

Thursday December 3, 20092:32GetFISARight

2:33

HarryWaisbren:

Juilan: constitution is the floor.

Julian: look at history, when there hasn't been sufficeint overisght of intellignece power, what has happened, ask what you are willing to risk being used int he same way by soemone who wanted to if htey lacked theo versight to prevent them from it.

Thursday December 3, 20092:33HarryWaisbren

2:33

thomasn528:

RT @GetFISARight: Nojeim of @cendemtech: do we want a country where anytime someone holds a record about u, gov can get it? #patriotact

Thursday December 3, 20092:33thomasn528

2:34

HarryWaisbren:

Nojeim: when a very intrusive form of surveillance or search is to be conducted, there is more serachign jduicial oversight of it. Hvae to show that this person is probably up to no good. Very good concept to spread along with ideas about law enforcement tools.

Thursday December 3, 20092:34HarryWaisbren

2:34

GetFISARight:

@thomasn528 thanks for the #patriotact RT on Nojeim of @cendemtech!

Thursday December 3, 20092:34GetFISARight

2:35

GetFISARight:

Nojeim of @cendemtech: when a very intrusive form of surveillance to be conducted, there is more judicial oversight of it. #patriotact

Thursday December 3, 20092:35GetFISARight

2:37

korkie:

RT @GetFISARight: @thomasn528 thanks for the #patriotact RT on Nojeim of @cendemtech!

Thursday December 3, 20092:37korkie

2:37

GetFISARight:

Nojeim of @cendemtech: show this person is probably up 2 no good. Good concept 2 spread along w/ ideas on law enforcement tools. #patriotact

Thursday December 3, 20092:37GetFISARight

2:39	HarryWaisbren: SAmp: I fully support minimizaton requirements and think that's fine. Thursday December 3, 20092:39HarryWaisbren

2:39

GetFISARight:

Samp in response to @normative: I fully support minimization requirements and think that's fine. #patriotact

Thursday December 3, 20092:39GetFISARight

2:40

HarryWaisbren:

Mcneil: really quickly, want to make the point that there is never a situation where tweeks on the patriot act wouldn't be appropriate. I don't support hte proposals I have seen on the books becasue I thinkt ehy tie the hands of investigators.

Mcneil: Richards makes point of patriot act on the whole, if we go back and see that this isn't working out, there should be chagnes in the process.

Mcneil: have to maintain balance iwth constitution.

Thursday December 3, 20092:40HarryWaisbren

2:40

korkie:

RT @GetFISARight: Samp in response to @normative: I fully support minimization requirements and think that's fine. #patriotact

Thursday December 3, 20092:40korkie

2:41	Jim Burrows: I'll be back to read this. What I've seen while walking in and out get ready go looks like you captured it well. Twee out the last few notes and anythign missed and we're golden. Good show. Thursday December 3, 20092:41Jim Burrows

2:41	HarryWaisbren: Great show! Thanks to Jim, Korkie, and Amy for helping out. Thanks to everyone who watched and RTed further as well! Thursday December 3, 20092:41HarryWaisbren

2:42

korkie:

I'm off to find that bottle of wine .... unless needed?

Thursday December 3, 20092:42korkie

2:43	HarryWaisbren: Please go enjoy yourself Korkie, thanks again! Thursday December 3, 20092:43HarryWaisbren

2:44

korkie:

Going through the rts ...... I think I only missed a couple.

Thursday December 3, 20092:44korkie

2:45

GetFISARight:

Mcneil of @heritage: there is never a situation where tweeks on the #patriotact wouldn't be appropriate

Thursday December 3, 20092:45GetFISARight

2:45

GetFISARight:

Mcneil of @heritage: I dont support the proposals I have seen on the books because I think they tie the hands of investigators. #patriotact

Thursday December 3, 20092:45GetFISARight

2:45

GetFISARight:

Mcneil of @heritage: if we go back and see that this isn't working out, there should be changes in the process. #patriotact

Thursday December 3, 20092:45GetFISARight

2:46

korkie:

RT @GetFISARight: RT @Brons: Gregory Nojeim starts his CATO #patriotact talk on the matter of National Security Letters

Thursday December 3, 20092:46korkie

2:46

korkie:

RT @GetFISARight: Sanchez aka @normative: insist on explanation for why safeguards are unacceptable. #patriotact

Thursday December 3, 20092:46korkie

2:46

korkie:

RT @GetFISARight: Sanchez aka @normative: default should not be government unfettered power. #patriotact

Thursday December 3, 20092:46korkie

2:46

GetFISARight:

Mcneil of @heritage: have to maintain balance with the constitution. #patriotact

Thursday December 3, 20092:46GetFISARight

2:46

korkie:

RT @GetFISARight: Sanchez aka @normative: you are all probably carrying a miniature surveillance device #patriotact

Thursday December 3, 20092:46korkie

2:46

bayreader:

RT @digiphile: "There is a whole document about mistrust of the government. It's called the Constitution"-Nojeim on need for #patriotact ...

Thursday December 3, 20092:46bayreader

2:47

korkie:

RT @GetFISARight: @logicalextremes thanks for signing on to our #patriotact Open Letter to Obama through RTing our #actly!

Thursday December 3, 20092:47korkie

2:47

korkie:

RT @GetFISARight: Here are our suggested tweets on our Open Letter to Obama to fix the #patriotact: http://bit.ly/6dDgAH #privacy

Thursday December 3, 20092:47korkie

2:48

GetFISARight:

Well that was quite the #patriotact debate! Thanks to @brons, @korkie @BleuZ00m for helping organize, & to everyone who RTed & tuned in!

Thursday December 3, 20092:48GetFISARight

2:52

Amy Ringenbach:

I've switched twitter accts, now on GFRoutreach, to tweetshake participants, and re-tweeters.. That was incredible. Though I did want to see at least one tomato thrown at.. you-know-who...

Thursday December 3, 20092:52Amy Ringenbach

2:53

Amy Ringenbach:

Korkie, Jim, Harry: grrreat work!

Thursday December 3, 20092:53Amy Ringenbach

2:53

Amy Ringenbach:

Question for any of us: will CATO make available this debate as a viewable webcast?

Thursday December 3, 20092:53Amy Ringenbach

2:54

Amy Ringenbach:

Will Julian follow up with us, following the reception there?

Thursday December 3, 20092:54Amy Ringenbach

2:54

2tuff15:

RT @Jaison96: RT @GetFISARight: You can sign our Open Letter to @BarackObama to fix the #patriotact at @care2: http://bit.ly/7ctiyd #p2

Thursday December 3, 20092:542tuff15

2:55	HarryWaisbren: Thanks for doing that Amy, the more RTing the better! If you can direct anyone who RTed us to our open letter it would be especially helpful. Thursday December 3, 20092:55HarryWaisbren

2:57	HarryWaisbren: Julian generously linked to us---twice---from his website and from Cato's. We do not have plans to followup, although I will be keeping the Cover it Live open (though without a moderator there might be delay before comments are approved). Thursday December 3, 20092:57HarryWaisbren

3:06

Amy Ringenbach:

That's what I'm doing: 'Direct anyone who RTed us to our open letter' and thanking them, H.

Thursday December 3, 20093:06Amy Ringenbach

3:11

jon:

hi everybody sorry i mostly missed it ... great job!

Thursday December 3, 20093:11jon

3:16

womenontheverge:

RT @Hegemommy: RT @GetFISARight: Here are our suggested tweets on our Open Letter to Obama 2 fix #patriotact: http://bit.ly/6dDgAH #p2 #tlot

Thursday December 3, 20093:16womenontheverge

6:29

jacknagel:

@normative Is there a video of today's #patriotact debate up anywhere?

Thursday December 3, 20096:29jacknagel

7:21

Brons:

RT @GetFISARight: Here are our suggested tweets on our Open Letter to Obama to fix the #patriotact: http://bit.ly/6dDgAH #privacy

Thursday December 3, 20097:21Brons

7:26

Brons:

@normative I really want to see that #patriotact event up on an archive. It was REALLY good. You and Greg said great things. Thx!

Thursday December 3, 20097:26Brons

7:29

Brons:

RT self Nojeim (#patriotact event): There is a whole document about mistrust of the gov't. It's called the Constitution. That's the message.

Thursday December 3, 20097:29Brons

7:29	Jim Burrows: Thanks everybody. Sorry I had to run off to a physical meeting before it was done. Great events, both teh CATO and the tweetchat. Thursday December 3, 20097:29Jim Burrows

9:39

Oculuris:

Many great tweets all day today re unconstitutional govt spying on u @GetFISARight @normative @cendemtech & others #patriotact #privacy #p2

Hwaisbren	Latest page update: made by Hwaisbren , Dec 4 2009, 12:29 PM EST (about this update About This Update Edited by Hwaisbren 12 words added view changes - complete history)
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